[Resolved] Ban appeal

[tentacles]

In-Game name: tentacles mesticles
Time of Ban: 22:54
Date of Ban: 05-09-24
Steam ID: STEAM_0:1:116494800
Reason for Ban: Racism/hate speech

Additional Comments: I was being quite rude to another player and I do apologize for- if nothing else, the way I said what I did.
From what I understand (unless I am wrong), the reason I was banned was that I was telling someone that the poly-amorous relationship they were making public with the server through voice chat would likely not work out. It was- for a lack of a better term, clipped and shipped to someone and within 30 seconds and I was permanently banned.
I am making this appeal now to try to settle things, as I participate in the Competitive TF2C PUGs that are held bi-weekly(ish). I was under the impression until recently it was a separate network and I'd like to make it clear I was not trying to avoid punishment by playing on it the past few weeks (as I have, it is an amazing server and I wish it the best, even if I am barred from it moving forward). I have been playing fair and respectfully for some 6-7 game days now, having warpped up the PUGs held just hours ago now with no issues. The main point being I am playing accountably.

I want to make it clear I did not say/do anything remotely racist, nor was it racially motivated in some way. I do understand it's a bit boilerplate ban reason since those two things can overlap enough.
However, I confess I have ban evaded on the network some days later, on 05-14-24, Steam ID STEAM_0:0:634282561 (I do not expect this account to be un-banned, nor am I asking for it to be). I am not attempting to justify that decision and I completely dug a deeper hole for myself as I regrettably often do. I want to add I was not attempting to cause any more trouble whatsoever while doing so, and was only still eager to play on the network- to the point I populated an 0/24 server to near full by the time I was banned. If it's decided this is enough of a reason to not appeal by ban I will understand.
The last thing that I will add is that even if I may be appealed, I will likely stick to the Competitive Discord and not cause problems on the official VF4 network... Thank you for the patience whichever staff may be giving me reading all this.

 

[VintagePC]

Hi there,

There are a few comments/clarifications I can offer offhand:

We don't really operate anything in the competitive server space as VF4 - all of the TF2C servers we operate and that are tied into our ban system are visible on the right column of this page - but I am aware there are some other communities that place their trust in our bans and scrape/import them for their own use, and this could be why you were banned elsewhere, possibly with a delay if they only do so once in a while. If you've been banned from formal competitive servers we don't operate then there isn't really anything I can do for you here and you'd need to reach out to those server operators instead.

Also, out of convenience, most of our staff opt to use the pre-canned ban reasons that generally align with our server rules, and in this case we group hate speech/targeted attacks (and a few other similar behaviours) against groups and racism in the same category, so the ban reason may be a bit more abstract and broader than what triggered the ban.

Lastly, it is generally our policy that evading bans with alternate accounts voids our consideration of an appeal from a banned player, but if desired I am certainly willing to go review the specifics of the ban to get clarification on exactly what got you banned from our servers and whether it merited an instant permanent ban. It may take me a few days since it'd involve sitting through and re-watching any demo files or videos attached to the record.

~Vintage

 

[tentacles]

When you put it in that way, that other communities entrust VaultF4 bans to be reliable makes more sense. I was more briefly told something along the lines of "well this/that person/VF4 admin is here so..." which is a fairly different answer.

That being said I think it'd be immensely helpful if you reviewed the record of my ban, as from what I understand a permanant ban is essentially the harshest punishment possible (perhaps I'm wrong and there are even more severe ones)... I can't say me or most other people I've talked to can agree it had that level of severity.

 

[VintagePC]

It's certainly possible that some of our staff are admins in other places, I do know a few of them are very active in the competitive scene - though of course a ban on other servers would still be outside of any possible ban reversal that could theoretically happen here.

I'll certainly take a look over the weekend (we usually state 2-3 days of time needed for one of us to review any attached evidence and compose a response to you) and get back to you with the specifics as they entail to your situation.

~Vint

 

[VintagePC]

Thanks for your patience. I did find a record of the conversation in question and in your case I think the primary infraction was not necessarily the statement about the relationship (which wasn't great in-context) but the exchange that followed, where a player commented that they could report you for saying transphobic things, and your response was:

"you could, [inaudible due to cross-talk, I'm guessing "or"] you could just add to the game having less players"

of which the implication appears to be a suggestion they kill themselves. As there are elevated suicide rates among the relevant demographics, this falls under targeted attacks on an individual.

There was also some weird conversation you participated in that seemed to center around trans people being predatory.

For lack of a better term, we do have two typical "tiers" of permanent bans; in general cases (non-cheating/hacking and such), we generally allow those to be appealed no sooner than one year after the ban was issued, in effect, after a third strike and a long vacation (where we feel someone has had time to consider their actions and impart some change), someone may be offered one "get out of jail free" card that is a final chance. If there are further violations at that point, we may reinstate a permanent ban from which there is no further appeal.

Based on your original message, it does sound like you've come to terms with the consequences of those actions in regards to our servers and now mostly only frequent the competitive side of the community. Given the added information on your ban above, do you have anything you'd like to add to the discussion here for us to take into consideration?

 

[tentacles]

where a player commented that they could report you for saying transphobic things, and your response was:

"you could, [inaudible due to cross-talk, I'm guessing "or"] you could just add to the game having less players"

of which the implication appears to be a suggestion they kill themselves. As there are elevated suicide rates among the relevant demographics, this falls under targeted attacks on an individual.

I had to get up and process this for a few minutes because even though I memory holed a lot of what I said I knew for sure I hadn't said something that messed up, I was talking about how if they reported me then I would be part of being "less players", honestly not that I think it's that deep or important that TF2C (VF4 specifically I suppose) has a single less player because of one player reporting another, was just something I blurted out impulsively in the moment.
On top of the fact that I had no knowledge of this person's gender identity- as this was my first time ever seeing and interacting with them (and I'm still not actually aware if they are part of that demographic now that I think about it), I would just like to state it bluntly here in defense, that I did not suggest/intend to suggest anyone to harm themselves.

There was also some weird conversation you participated in that seemed to center around trans people being predatory.

I don't specifically remember talking about that personally but I suppose did if it's on record, it's not really a hill I'm about to die on and given that it's already a very touchy and political sort of subject and a bit of a vague response, I'd not like to get partisan either way about it.
Thank you for the response about the permanant ban tiering too, makes sense cheaters are handled differently. On a bit of an unrelated note, I remember mentioning that I had wanted to wait another 2-3 months before making an appeal- and then shortly later being asked to make one asap (which I just found a bit funny, have mentioned why I was asked to in posts above, I believe). Slightly because I was uncomfortable with the forum format at a glance but also just to ensure things were cool for certain.

Other than that, I still feel mostly the same way about my permanant ban with the exception of the self harm implication topic, which I appreciate being brought up as I didn't expect something like that to be part of the concern/ban.
(communication between people is helpful, who'dve thought ^^').

 

[VintagePC]

Thanks for the follow-up and the additional information.

I will definitely concede it's not always easy to infer intent in some of these situations, and my approach going in was ultimately a bit biased, both because we've generally been dealing with an uptick in hate speech the last little while, and a partial confirmation bias in what I was looking for.

As an explanation (not an excuse): I was scratching my head trying to determine which of the three statements exactly had warranted a the severity of an instant permanent ban, heard that, and went "ah, that must have been it", without it registering that there was room for additional interpretation. It just felt like a very odd turn of phrase to me but it makes more sense now. In retrospect, the cross-talk could easily have been masking you saying "and you would..." instead of "or you could..."

As you say, that's why it helps to talk about things - I do hope you noticed the reply I made previously was open ended and in support of seeking further comment, rather than an outright conclusion of the appeal.

Our internal review therefore concludes that my interpretation of events was wrong (oof... my apologies) and as a result, the original ban really wasn't justified as an instant permanent ban.

I'll own the mistake I made, so here's what I'm proposing:

As a first infraction this would probably have been a mute or ban for a couple of days. Unfortunately, I can't retroactively enter mutes in the system, so instead I will change it to a 3 day full ban (first infraction tier) effective from the day it was filed back in May, meaning it would have expired by the 14th when you connected with your alt.

I'll also make a circumstantial/special exception to our policy on ban evasion and remove that from the record entirely.

The one caveat here is that since you are now inexcusably aware of our server rules in this area, that may be taken into consideration if there are any further infractions in the future, but it sounds like that's unlikely to be a problem.

If that sounds reasonable to you, just give me a shout and I'll make the adjustment(s) and resolve this appeal.

~Vintage

 

[tentacles]

That resolution sounds fine with me, I did notice the open ended nature of the last response- tried to capitalize on it since I got the feeling it's not always a given with ban appeals especially here where the game is relatively small and easily discarded for most...
I think I'll keep this response short, I don't like forums much T-T

 

[VintagePC]

Your bans have been adjusted and I'm marking this as resolved.