In defense of vip_trainyard

[Shens]

Trainyard, huh. Possibly one of the most controversial maps in the game, by how much one can love it and how much another on the same server can hate it.

I'm personally of the former group. The clueless hate that more unexperienced players tend to send towards this map is... amusing, to say the least. Since stopping midgame to explain my nuanced stance in chat isn't quite efficient, due to the pace of the rounds, nor is typing all this out in a Discord chat where it will immediately get washed away by various GIFs and memes (I wonder if they've made a type of website for long-form, perhaps threaded posts. Named something like quorum, it's on the tip of my tongue), suppose I could entertain the fellow readers of this website.

I tend to call Trainyard "the ADHD map". In a game where one of the most common complaints towards maps such as 2Fort (or any other CTF map for that matter), Dustbowl, Goldrush or Powerhouse (best of the listed, don't @ me) tends to be "Wow! This is taking forever!", Trainyard takes the opposite approach - absolutely fast-paced high-risk rounds.

High speed and risk gameplay does require a certain level of skill though. I understand why players with less experience could hate this map, especially when surrounded by fellow Trainyard enjoyers whose behaviour on here tends to be different than that of other maps, such as Badwater.

Fun is subjective, obviously, but we can define things that are, by obvious public consensus, not fun. 15 minute long rounds where nothing gets done, back and forth tugs of war on 5CP - anything that drags out the clock without much final reward; confusing large maps such as Steel, that result in little teamwork getting done and lost players. Trainyard my beloved avoids both these problems by having the rounds be, at most, 3 minutes long (Maybe this is why I like Counter-Strike...) and having a tiny, easily navigatable map where you can run from corner to corner in, what, 15-20 seconds[?], thus leading to tighter teamwork. And also not having moments where any round gets too stale. You can always rotate through different entrances and exits. Did I mention verticality? Around the starting areas, Rails and Yard (those are the callouts I've came up for them - Rails being the wide platformed area right out of BLU spawn exists and Yard being the area with the train under the roof), classes like Soldier reign supreme, playing there with which also got really fun with the Anchor in 2.2.

This map also gives the VIP much more opportunity for those adrenaline-inducing plays - you HAVE to watch your back, as Spy players have an ultimate target. You just can't be as relaxed like on other VIP maps - you have to lock in. Though given the nature of TF2C, something like a Heavy/Soldier kritz push around the corner would be inevitable. Blaming this on game design, this isn't exclusive to this map though does have round-ending problems if you get caught off guard. Especially if you as VIP push before or beside your teammates, instead of falling back slightly, but again, this is universal for every VIP map. People, please. I get so many easy kills on overextending VIPs, it's actually unreal.

Obviously, yes, Trainyard isn't a map that some would be willing to play 24/7. As previously noted, you have to lock in to have fun. Same goes for Arena! Jesus Christ on a bike, so many people I meet that would be willing to play CTF without complaining but despise Arena. It's not a bad mode per se, hell, sometimes I can enjoy a good half-hour of 2Fort if the weather is right, but it's rather the CTF enjoyers' attitude towards enshrining low-stakes play and seeing maps where you actually have the capacity to clutch more due to skill as inferior. But that's a whooole different story that I'm not sidetracking on today.

It may have some problems - if I were to admit, it's: the right (from BLU perspective) exit from spawn being very susceptible to camping both by snipers and explosive classes, as well as the rather powerful sentry spots on the ledge at last and atop the train in the yard, and the massive sightline from the right yard exit all the way to the brick house right flank on last. And obviously, the fact that newer players aren't alerted "Hey, the VIP only has one life per round here, be careful!"

I guess I just really adore this little map that stands out from all other ones by being the only one with a high-stakes mechanic of One-Life VIP.
Kudos to the devs for taking this little experiment and making a map that goes against the typical principles of drawn-out back-and-forth rounds and adds some much needed pace and risk in the game while integrating the world-beloved fat bastard into it, I'm sure there is a small group of people like me that share the same love for this outsider of the map pool.

i hope this post is strung together well enough, lol, don't take it too seriously. now excuse me as I get a drink and continue pwning newbs

 

[kestrel]

i do like trainyard's map design a lot, and the one-life VIP gimmick does indeed keep up a fast pace, but it's such an extraordinarily punishing gimmick that puts way too much strain on the guy playing VIP
i mean i hate 30-minute-long 2fort stalemate slop as well, but i also don't like arena and it's even worse when your entire team's success hinges on one guy living or dying

the lack of respawns gives RED way too much freedom to just dive the VIP and kill him. whether that's spy or sniper instakilling him, soldier or demo divebombing him, pyros or heavies W+M1'ing him or even just stacking engineers on the point. you make the argument that no VIP respawns keeps the tension high, but that's only really the case for BLU team. RED can just keep throwing themselves at the VIP as much as they like and there's zero consequence for failure. they just need to get lucky one single time and they win

also obviously just getting a shit VIP with zero self awareness means you just lose as BLU every time. you can't defend someone who runs in on their own thinking they can take down a sentry gun with an umbrella

a more experimental map like this really shows the flaws in the VIP gamemode and why valve decided to scrap it for retail TF2. don't get me wrong i think the VIP mode is a lot of fun but it deserves to stay in the confines of being a mod only. there's a good %75 of the playerbase who just should not be VIP because they have zero self preservation instincts. if VIP existed in the retail game, that percentage would go up to %99

if it were up to me i'd probably take things even further and make trainyard into an arena/VIP hybrid where nobody gets to respawn. that would make the gimmick more fair because it prevents RED from diving him so they're working under the same restrictions as BLU team are
either that or crank up RED team's respawn timers way high. like 20 seconds minimum to come back regardless of the match's conditions

 

[Shens]

It’s 4AM and I’ve just had a sort of epiphany.

I was rambling about earlier about how assymetrical gamemodes feel anticlimactic for RED players. How their wins aren’t acquired through clutching a push for a specific goal, a specific point, but just by holding the line and stalling out the game until the clock runs out - even worse in A/D CP where you cannot roll back the enemy’s progress except push them to the spawn room.

While it is indeed made better in VIP mode with the ability to make the clock run out faster by killing the Civilian, I’ve came across a shocking realisation about why I *actually* love Trainyard.

This map removes the anticlimactic win situation from RED team, to add to everything mentioned by me originally. You aren’t just expected to stall the clock out when playing defense, no. You have an equally clear of a goal as the attacking team does. “Win the game by killing the fat bald bastard!” That is what makes Trainyard much more engaging in my opinion, the removal of the requirement for RED to stall out the clock and providing them a much more fun and rewarding goal, while also keeping the asymmetrical gameplay.

will respond to the above reply tomorrow, eyes cant focus on reading so late into the night haha

 

[Shens]

puts way too much strain on the guy playing VIP

Ah, yes, I will admit - I am slightly biased in this regard because I never play as the VIP myself. I do understand it though and it's exactly the reason why I don't play Civilian - it's just too stressful to constantly watch around yourself, especially when you are now the defending team's Public Enemy #1. I do think the part of the stress is offset though on this map due to your teammates taking more care of you than in other VIP maps. But alas, stress is stress and one wrong move as the VIP there can cost you the entire round.

RED can just keep throwing themselves at the VIP as much as they like and there's zero consequence for failure. they just need to get lucky one single time and they win

Yep, that's very much the biggest fault in the map that I forgot to mention in my original post and thanks for pointing that out because I am slightly ashamed of myself now ;w;

you can't defend someone who runs in on their own thinking they can take down a sentry gun with an umbrella

It's true for every VIP map, really. But yeah, quite punishing here in particular. I think there are some social consequences for doing this though (and obviously the "play 3 VIP games before you can be VIP" restriction) that protect overconfident players from these mistakes. Somebody always needs some negative experience to learn, I suppose.

there's a good %75 of the playerbase who just should not be VIP because they have zero self preservation instincts. if VIP existed in the retail game, that percentage would go up to %99

Highly agree actually and forgot to account for this too. I do play rather competitively so I tend to overestimate the average player's skill... Remembering some of my Live TF2 experience it is quite apparent. Don't think this is fixable though in any meaningful way that isn't "ELO based matchmaking" which just... isn't for this game.

make trainyard into an arena/VIP hybrid where nobody gets to respawn. that would make the gimmick more fair because it prevents RED from diving him so they're working under the same restrictions as BLU team are
either that or crank up RED team's respawn timers way high. like 20 seconds minimum

I'd actually love to see an experiment of hybrid Arena/VIP (brb, phoning the mapping community ) and how that would work! But yeah, I think slightly upping the timer for RED would be beneficial. Agree with your perspectives though.

I did play a game of Trainyard earlier today before coming in to respond, so as to get a reality check. I think the success for BLU is majorly dependent on how well the team protects the VIP as the biggest factor. The average Civ player can, with a normal amount of effort, cap the point as long as their team actually has awareness and a sense of teamwork. In fact, that is kind of another reason why I love Trainyard too - the map conditions teamwork and coordination for BLU players.

It's still flawed in a sense that RED still have a rather individualistic sense of play, but as you've noted - an Arena/VIP hybrid could be a viable solution to make both teams stick together. It's something that is quite scarse from the casual pool in this game - maps that basically force coordination as a requirement to win, instead of players disconnecting from reality and mindlessly fragging.

 

[vilewitch]

trainyard makes u use ur brainyard or ur turned into a stainyard

 

[kestrel]

This map removes the anticlimactic win situation from RED team, to add to everything mentioned by me originally. You aren’t just expected to stall the clock out when playing defense, no. You have an equally clear of a goal as the attacking team does. “Win the game by killing the fat bald bastard!” That is what makes Trainyard much more engaging in my opinion, the removal of the requirement for RED to stall out the clock and providing them a much more fun and rewarding goal, while also keeping the asymmetrical gameplay.

this is a good point. i mean when you really boil it down, VIP is basically just "payload but the bomb can go anywhere it likes". and as with payload there's not much reason for RED to do anything except bunker down on the objective and wait for BLU to come to them. that's the point, of course, but it's not the most engaging thing in the world. especially when RED stacks explosive classes, engineers and/or snipers to camp every single doorway

in the lore RED are contracted to kill the civilian, much like BLU are contracted to protect him. but if RED win the match just by stalling and never kill the VIP once, can it really be said that they won?

i almost wonder if it's worth trying out an alternate win condition for VIP maps where the civilian has limited lives and RED must exhaust them all to claim victory - timing out the map would only end in a stalemate for both sides. it would be interesting to see how it interacts with the new(ish) VIP race mode, too

Highly agree actually and forgot to account for this too. I do play rather competitively so I tend to overestimate the average player's skill... Remembering some of my Live TF2 experience it is quite apparent. Don't think this is fixable though in any meaningful way that isn't "ELO based matchmaking" which just... isn't for this game.

they really need to work on a class tutorial for the civilian, one which teaches you he is not a combat class by any metric. i really hope they're working on something like that for the steam release because we're going to have a lot of new blood coming in who has no idea how to play as the civilian
i also think the "play 3 games" restriction should be increased (to 5, ideally) and they should only count if you win. yes, it's gatekeep-y, but it's warranted for a role as important as the civilian

 

[Shens]

they really need to work on a class tutorial for the civilian, one which teaches you he is not a combat class by any metric.

Actually wonderful idea, if could be executed well. Have a singleplayer (with bots, or scripted) tutorial after which you have the client pass the server a note that says “We did the civ tutorial!” and if the server checks so through a convar - allow the player to be voted in or randomly selected as VIP. Don’t have to “trust” the player that much either, really, so shouldn’t be too hard to implement realistically.

but if RED win the match just by stalling and never kill the VIP once, can it really be said that they won?

This is something that can be said for almost every mode (with exceptions of VIPR because it ends in sudden death and symmetrical CP) Like, mate, “the respawn machine” on the defending team randomly breaks after the round timer runs out or something? Logically it could just go on.

alternate win condition for VIP maps where the civilian has limited lives and RED must exhaust them all to claim victory

Great idea! The -30s on VIP death thing is already somewhat achieving this, and in a way the timer *is* tied to the VIP’s lives. Though if this would go on to be a really limited lives thing, would be cool if capturing a point along the way could give a bonus life or something. Just throwing that idea out there.

especially when RED stacks explosive classes, engineers and/or snipers to camp every single doorway

This doesn’t happen in my experience playing this map, maybe only like once in twenty rounds. Or maybe it’s just because I’m playing pubs where people aren’t coordinating enough to do this.

 

[kestrel]

This is something that can be said for almost every mode (with exceptions of VIPR because it ends in sudden death and symmetrical CP) Like, mate, “the respawn machine” on the defending team randomly breaks after the round timer runs out or something? Logically it could just go on.

you're right, but i think VIP is different because of the presence of the civilian. in every other mode the defending side can win just by winding down the clock, but killing the VIP is why the mode exists in the first place

your own argument could be said about trainyard, too. is there any thematic reason why the civilian can't respawn on this map? not really, it's just how the map was made because the devs wanted to do something different with the VIP formula

i'm not gonna defend this point too hard because thematic consistency shouldn't take priority over gameplay, i just think it's something worth considering. the timer is there for RED's benefit as much as it is their downfall because if it didn't exist the VIP would just camp in BLU spawn all day waiting for the perfect opportunity to emerge and cap the point whilst RED team is all dead. but it also means RED can camp themselves and not bother pursuing the civilian at all

i thought once about a VIPR map where you can only score points by killing the enemy team's civilian, forcing teams to balance a mixture of offense and defence. i think that would work on a KOTH-style map design, something small that forcibly keeps both teams together and minimizes travel time