[Resolved] Ban Contest

[ceasardingus]

In-Game name: ceasardingus
Time of Ban: 00:08
Date of Ban: 09-22-21
Steam ID: [U:1:877104808]
Reason for Ban: Inappropriate Language
Additional Comments: I was mot aware of the ban until I logged on to play today, so I have no clue what this is in reference to.

 

[RedFocus]

hello there, i know iam not vintagepc but ill take a look it since hes busy working in real life, it might take 24-48 hours or maybe even less

have a nice day
-Madrazo.

 

[VintagePC]

Sorry for the delay.

We received a complaint regarding in-game behaviour and language; specifically making disparaging remarks towards women and that certain groups of people need to "all die or should be chemically castrated".

These sorts of remarks are unacceptable in our servers, as a direct violation of rule #3 - even more so because the official servers are likely the primary entry point for new players in the game.

On confirming the complaint was valid and reviewing our logs it would appear that this is not your first infraction for inappropriate language.
The prior infraction was a session block, and it is standard policy that repeated infractions will result in increased duration of any repercussions - hence the 3-day communications ban.

Hopefully that helps clarify why you received the communications block.

 

[ceasardingus]

You're good, but
Rule number 3, as you cited specifically says that the server only has banned intentions, and my intentions in every one of those interactions was to make the others I was talking to laugh. Which happened. Lotta VF4 staff around when I say weird stuff like,"I think they should be holocausted", in reference to people who eat cereal with a fork, or some other nonexistent group.

"Disparaging remarks towards women"
What does this mean? I've never been demeaning towards women of the basis that they're a woman. The closest I come is saying incel buzzwords, once again, because they make me, and the people I'm talking to laugh. So unless there's anything specific that I can look at, I've got no real way to address this one.

"even more so because the official servers are likely the primary entry point for new players in the game."
Off topic thing real quick, I know that this is a part of the generic response, but you do know no one can download the game right now, yeah?

"this is not your first infraction for inappropriate language."
Incorrect. The other infraction was under a minute of comm ban time for Obscene Language, because Drek the Opossum was upset that I was making fun of George Lucas. He gave no warning, as he only spoke in text chat, spamming stuff like "why would you say such evil things about Mr. Lucas?" Which only made me and the others laugh harder. I don't think this is valid at all, since he reversed it almost immediately, but you might not agree.

"The prior infraction was a session block, and it is standard policy that repeated infractions will result in increased duration of any repercussions - hence the 3-day communications ban."
That's understandable...except the ban wasn't three days. I wasn't able to communicate on the 21st even though the ban did not start until the 22nd. That's a 4 day, my man, which is not what is advertised.

Okay, now I'm going to stop fucking around, mostly:
I really like this game. It's the only game I play actively, and I've been playing for a while. But I tried playing it without comms yesterday. I've got to say that without the ability to join in on the conversation that was going on while I played (whether or not it's okay to be a nazi, yes, really) I was miserable. And it gave me time to think, not only of the implication of modern politics shifting towards communism, which is still very funny to think about, but about WHY I play the game. I still don't know. But what I do know, is that I want to continue. What I don't want to continue is to see brand new staff that just does whatever, like Madrazo, being insulated by other VF4 staff. I don't want to get banned without the proof in my hands, because you saying it's valid means nothing to me, even if I love your blog on TV restoration. And I don't want to see nothing in your response. Like the one you just sent. You gave a single quote, one that I have said many times in reference to everything from coffee machines to people with uni brows, because exaggeration is funny. I would like to know what actual proof you have that gives it validity. Because not only did you block my comms, you made it two strikes. I'm dangerously close to getting banned, so I need something here. If you want to police language, do it properly.

 

[VintagePC]

Sorry about that. I sat down to re-review our SourceTV capture of the incident and take exact notes several hours ago but real life ended up getting in the way before I could get very far. This also relates your question about validity, as this is how I was able to confirm that the statements made by the complainant were accurate during my initial review.

I see the block has since expired. (The ban system timestamps are all UTC. Therefore, depending on your timezone, the ban may have been in effect while it was still the 21st for you. It expired in UTC exactly 72 hours later, so no false advertising there.) so in the meanwhile you should be able to continue playing as before.

However, I and/or LavaRed do intend to address the remaining additional points you've made as a matter of principle to bring this appeal to a conclusion. As our official CM their decision is final and if the conclusion is that the block was not justified, it will be removed from the record. Otherwise, it will remain.

I need to sign off for the night hence the brevity of this message, but there will be additional followup over the weekend once we denote the specific examples you requested and organize our reasoning.

 

[ceasardingus]

Thank you, I would just like clarification, so I'm able to avoid any problems in the future. Take your time, and have a great night.

 

[VintagePC]

OK, i finally had some time to organize a structured reply from my assorted notes after reviewing the demo.

I'll start by addressing some of your additional points:

Our "Banned intentions" refers not to the intent of the person saying the thing, but the overall intent of the discussion. For example, we do not have an issue with a fact-based discussion (to use your example, on the holocaust and its events or figures) but we draw the line at making jokes about it or insinuating that it deserves to happen to someone or a particular group of people.

As a corollary, *YOU* don't get to be the person to decide what is and isn't the intent. Things you said *did* leave someone feeling insulted or demeaned, enough so to file a complaint about it. To continue with the same example, there are vast groups of people that find flippant remarks about or make light of the holocaust deeply upsetting either due to their personal experiences or upbringing and history. This is not a foreign concept in western society where you appear to reside, and you should know better.

I don't particularly care what you say in private among your friends in terms of off-colour or dark humour, but when you are in a public setting such as our servers, where anyone can come and go at will, it is neither the time nor place for those kinds of topics.

I also re-reviewed your infraction history. I trust that the more experienced staff do not issue bans and warnings frivolously, and that if something does occur by mistake or as a joke, that I am informed so that it does not remain on record in situations like this. I've received no such request - and according to the logs you also received a warning on Aug 18 by a different staff member in addition to the session comms block earlier this month. You do not appear to have been unblocked by the staff member , the block expired on its own. Nor was the duration altered after the fact. I even checked with the staff member in question to confirm it was not a joke mute, so I am still considering both of those as valid prior infractions for the purposes of this review.

In terms of specific examples of items that violated the rules:

• Suggesting the Hoteps are "great" and being supportive (or coming across as such) of the group when they appear to be very controversial and antisemitic, among other things.
• Holocaust related remarks in the context of the above.
• Referring to furries as "disgusting mongoloid creatures". Nobody says you're required to agree with them or things they do but that comment is uncalled for, in addition to the use of a slur that's considered incredibly offensive.
• The previously noted comments that "they deserve to die" or should be "chemically castrated".

• I do retract the previous statement regarding derogatory comments towards women. That was made in error as you were hot-mic'd the same time as another player and it took several re-watches at lower speed to discern who was saying what.
• And yes, I am overlooking a few broader more questionable discussions/topics that while I'd personally prefer not to have in the servers, aren't explicitly against our rules and seemed to have been a reasonable attempt to convey information that was either explanatory or factual.

Given the above I don't see any reason to consider the infraction as invalid and it will remain on the record.

If you disagree with this decision then the only recourse I can offer you is that I can ask our CM (LavaRed) to review and issue a final verdict.

 

[ceasardingus]

Hey, sorry this is so late, but I just got home from a business trip out in the desert:

>As a corollary, *YOU* don't get to be the person to decide what is and isn't the intent. Things you said *did* leave someone feeling insulted or demeaned, enough so to file a complaint about it
That actually clarifies things quite a bit. That is not a common idea, but taking that into consideration, I'll be able to move forward without issue.

>, the block expired on its own. Nor was the duration altered after the fact. I even checked with the staff member in question to confirm it was not a joke mute,
To clear things up, I never said it was a joke mute, I said it was a mute given over a joke. Specifically me shittalking George Lucas, but that's irreverent. You also asked why I didn't issue a statement, on the forums, at the time of the comm ban: I didn't know about the forums, and the mute was like a minute tops. The only reason I brought it up was because I didn't like the infraction on my history, but I understand it's too late to contest that.

>Suggesting the Hoteps are "great" and being supportive (or coming across as such) of the group when they appear to be very controversial and antisemitic, among other things.
I obviously meant that I thought they were funny, I don't condone their actions, and everything I said was quoting them. Aside from that, the "antisemitic" quotes weren't from the hoteps, here's a key for context
-Hoteps: Generally believe that they, Black Americans, are Egyptians, and that white people have changed the color of the art in every great nation sometimes, all the way up to WW2. It varies.
-Black Israelites: The "antisemitic ones" . They believe that the current euro-Jewish population are actually not Jewish at all. They believe Israel was stolen from the chosen people and that the people who claim the Jewish name are Satan worshipers. My roommate is one.
-Nation of Islam: Muslim + Yakub
-Yakub: All three generally believe in a per-historic (by the white man's standards) civilization that spanned the stars. In that place there was a genetic scientist that wanted to create a slave race to serve their people. The others thought it wrong, and against nature. Yakub persisted and created a genetic freak with pale death on his skin and a savageness that Yakub could not hold back. His prisoners pulled forth and after sacking the cities, went up to the barbarous ice mountains in the caucuses. And that's where white people came from.

>the furry part.
I'm sorry, I won't do it again.


Other than that, thank you for your time, I'm just glad I can continue playing, but I do have one suggestion that I hope you will read:
You should stop recording players without their consent. TF2C might have a deal with steam, and you guys are the main servers. Recording conversations even in a public forum violate interstate, and international wiretapping laws. I really don't want this shit to get taken down but some pissed off dude tattling to valve. Either way, just look over everything and make sure you're good.

-have a great one

 

[Reechard]

Jaysus Christ. Pls kindly yeet yourself out of our community/ into the sun with your overly verbose legalese about why you think you're ok to come in here and tromp all over the brown hat rule.